Steve Bunce's book
Around the World in 80 Fights, let ‘the Voice of Boxing’ take you on the ultimate sporting odyssey: to the rings of New York, to the makeshift rings of Bukom in Ghana, to the riches of Las Vegas, and to Riyadh, Atlantic City, Bethnal Green, Mexico City, Rome and Berlin.
To the basement rooms in dingy pubs where old fighters chase the last round; a bullring in December under the stars; a small square on the outskirts of Naples with a ring obscured by a fountain; the abandoned centre of boxing excellence in a forest lost in East Germany; a railway arch in south London and a bin-bag packed with cash.
Let ‘Buncey’ tell you about the conversations with Mr. T at ringside; a meeting with the Pope’s people; the thoughts of Donald Trump when he had plans to make boxing great again; Don King in exile in his nineties; an overheard conversation with Fidel Castro; and a very real diplomatic incident.
The hard conversations with a dead boxer’s mother in the hour after a machine had been switched off. The bravery, stupidity, guts, desire and glory of the boxers in the world’s most famous and unknown rings. They fought for millions, for pride, for their country and for nothing. They bled, cried and died in those rings.
Around the World in 80 Fights vividly reveals the simple, wonderful and truly awful business of boxing. It is Buncey’s business and this is his story.
I caught up with Steve recently to talk about his career in Boxing as detailed in the book you can listen to the audio version of the show or watch the video version here on the website or on You Tube .
Get the book here https://amzn.to/4jlG8V5 or the audio book here https://amzn.to/4anPtr9
it is available on a 3 month soecial deal with audible 0.99 per month for 3 months
Tim Caple (00:02.099)
So you've watched boxing for 40 years, 30 countries. You've seen the greatest fighters of all of the generations You said you sat with presidents, you'd be detained by armed security, you made friends, you've got others that ignore you for picking against them, boxers absorb punches.
but their skin is very, very thin. You've been in newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, podcasts. How difficult was it to condense a lifetime's worth of dedication into this book of 80 fights and characters?
Bunce (00:44.007)
You know the craziest thing was at the time and I wrote it really quick I tried to give it some energy it was almost like I was writing in life so it was written in a sort of four or five week period in four different countries so it was really written fast. At the time I thought that's it Bunce you've done a not bad job you've managed to capture things you haven't missed too many things out nothing that springs to mind. In the last in the last five days in the last five days two events have popped up.
and I could have sworn they were in the book. Only this morning I was turning the pages, reading down the contents and thinking, no, no, I've missed a major event from November the 19th, 1990, a fight which I described in other places on radio and TV and in columns that changed boxing. Nigel Ben, Chris Eubank, boxing went from black and white, old, stayed, into the new world.
It was colorful. The music was unbelievable. The promoter was new. They'd flown in Michael Buffer to do the MC. They'd flown in the world's most famous referee, Richard Steele, to be in Birmingham at the NEC to do it. And I could have sworn, I would have sworn on a holy stack of boxing books that it was in there and it wasn't one of the 80. So there's 81 straight away. And there's been quite a few I've missed out and I've looked through my fingers.
In fact, I'm going to whisper it, but Carl Froch who did me a glowing endorsement for the cover, it was only when I got the final manuscript that I realized there wasn't a Carl Froch fight in there. I'd seen him fight. I'd seen him fight in Finland. I'd seen him fight in America. I'd seen him fight in his hometown of Nottingham. I'd seen him as a gangly amateur losing.
Bunce (02:29.535)
and I was sickened with myself for missing Carl Froch. So in answer to your question, I have no idea why I condensed it and it's clear I didn't do a very good job of condensing it.
Tim Caple (02:39.175)
Looking back now at those beginnings, it does seem almost quaint, doesn't it? The first gig, 10 quid. You're in the business for 35 years before you got your first business class ticket. You talk about going from watching with 90,000 people at Wembley to a room above a pub. And you say making that journey is essential.
Bunce (02:49.002)
Yeah, 16 quid, 14 quid.
Tim Caple (03:07.891)
Don't you think that too often today, many people that look to want to follow you into this career or do something similar with another sport, don't take that journey.
Bunce (03:18.622)
Yeah, they want to pick up after about 20 odd years to be perfectly honest with you. I mean, I know people under 30 who under 30 who I work with at ringside and in the box in media who fly to a venue a day later because if they'd have gone on the day they wanted to go, they've had to have gone economy or premium plus. So they wait an extra day to fly a business. And these are people 27, 28, 29.
Bunce (03:48.841)
There's a lot of entitled people out there, not just in the boxing media business, but I think, you know, in life, there's more entitled people than there were maybe 30 or so years ago. I look, and quaints a good word, because it was quaint. We're talking here about me when I started, and I don't consider myself an old man by any stretch of the imagination.
other people might call me old geezer and granddad. Well, two people can call me granddad legitimately, they're my grandchildren, but the others call me, you know, they're kind of joking, but they're not really, but I'll let it slide. If you think about when I started, there's no mobile phones. And there were no laptops. The first Tandy's, those things that weighed about 10 kilos that didn't work anyway, they came out sort of towards the end of the eighties.
So my first four five years, it's strictly copy takers, phoning up straight after an event or phoning my copy through. Because I've never had a desk in a newspaper. I worked, I was staff at the Daily Telegraph for about four or five years and I was a regular there for another two or three years before I was staffed. I've been filing a column to the Independent since 2000 and in fact 1999.
and they've moved about five times. They've had about 10 different editors. I've met two of them. I've never been into the independent office and yet I'm 20, 25 years into filing a weekly column. So I'm very much an outlier in the journalism business. So for me to file back then was always by phone. And I still write like I'm dictating to a copy taker up in Yorkshire, Weatherby, where they used to be based. And there's some stories in the book and stories I tell when I do sort of
when I do talking gigs, that there are fights where I had three telephones installed for me. And there's a very famous fight between Lindsay Morgan, an American, and Nigel Benn from the Brentwood International Center in Brentwood in Essex. And you can clearly see me, I had lots of hair with two phones, one on my right ear, one on my left ear, and another one in my hand.
Bunce (05:59.686)
That's multitasking. I'm filing to three different Sunday newspapers. And the irony is that one of the women I was talking to, she was taking both loads of copy. She was taking identical copy. Because all of the stuff was in weatherby, the copy takers for all of the British newspapers. So I was filing to two women and one woman was taking two loads of copy.
Tim Caple (06:09.885)
brilliant.
Bunce (06:20.55)
So she said, okay, Steve, is this the Sunday Express or is this the Sport on Sunday? Sounds more like the Sport on Sunday, Steve. I said, okay, I'm a bit confused. Sling that paragraph over to the other paper and swing the other paper, the other paragraph over. I mean, this is true. This happened, as I say, and I've already said it. I haven't forgotten I said it. I'm not that old. I'm not that old, but that hadn't changed. That was how.
men like Reg Gutteridge and men like Harry Carpenter when they were newspaper men. That's how they filed their copy in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and the 80s and that's when I come in. It had not changed. Let's get that straight.
Tim Caple (07:03.091)
The Losers lost 96 of his 99. It was a Sunday afternoon and he's preparing by having a fag outside the back door. And it's just a great story because this is the heart, isn't it, of boxing to a degree all this stuff goes on that people never see. There's nothing glossy or glitzy. But there's this guy that you describe.
Bunce (07:31.695)
Yeah.
Tim Caple (07:58.323)
who has literally spent a lifetime losing and he's still there.
Bunce (08:01.946)
Yeah, there was only, people have asked me, Tim, how the book was framed and whether I worked on it, know, intentionally to make story number 70 and story number 24. No, there were only two, there were only two things I wanted to do. And the first was I was desperate to have Johnny Greaves open the book, smoking a cigarette before he's 100th and last fight. And I also wanted to end it in a new world. As said, this was written during a sort of four or five week period.
I also wanted to end it in the New World, which would be Riyadh, in a five-star hotel if possible. So I managed to end it in Riyadh with a great fight. And then I also, this ridiculous fight, then I had Alexander Usyk on the 115th floor in a suite. And then an hour later, had Mike Tyson and his skimpy shorts showing me some punches. All of that happened in an eight-hour period. So I thought if I start with Johnny Greaves in the doorway having a cigarette before his 100th fight,
Bunce (09:00.228)
I then go to a place that's generating half a billion dollars per show with the star Mike Tyson, one of the greatest fighters in history and Alexander Usyk, this future great who's still a great now and obviously this national hero. I thought that would do nicely. Then all I had to do was cram the other 78 in and they come in no order. And people have doubted that. The absolute truth,
I was flying to quite a few flights around that time. I remember in Monaco, when I was out in Monaco, I was writing about a mad show involving some topless German women and a female pioneer called Sue Atkins. So I was actually on a balcony, I'd paid 50 euros extra for a balcony, looking out on the harbor at Monaco, typing about Sue Atkins fighting in a hotel in Watford. And when she got there, this woman who was a gardener and a genuine pioneer, when she got there, she realized it was being filmed by a soft porn company.
And she was in, she actually wanted her to take her top off, which she didn't do, but she did fight. So I understand. And she's never denied it. She doesn't scream about it, obviously. A topless and well-oiled German woman who I've tried to track down. I think her name is Diane Heck. I mean, you can't invent this, Well, I'd like to, hand on heart Tim I'd like to come on here and invent stories like that, but it's not, I couldn't invent it. It's actually true.
Tim Caple (10:20.563)
Audley Harrison, Mike Middleton, and you describe this as the story you're about to read is a five-star ocean going fur-lined farce, ludicrous, comical, and absolutely true. So the guy had come off the back of winning the Olympic gold, first time a Brit had won it since 68. Everything looked as if it was...
moving in the right direction for him,
Bunce (10:51.494)
And they managed to pick a guy who when they picked him, he was banned. And the reason why we know that Mike Middleton was banned is that there was a printed printed sheet of his record and it had on it at the bottom. They hadn't even crossed it out the fact that he was banned. And and also Mike Middleton stands in front of us and tells us that his daytime job is as a undercover agent at Disneyland in Florida. So we say, well, what do you mean undercover? What do you mean? He said, well, I dress up as Mickey Mouse and Pluto.
Get in! Audley Harrison's fighting Mickey Mouse. You can't invent this stuff. You're a newspaper man. Once again, this is God. And then of course, and this was the only chapter in the book that got seriously legal, that little thing you read, that was well-chosen words by me, the publisher, me, the editor, and the lawyers, lots of lawyers, hurried around this one. There was all sorts of crazy things in it. It's all true. He was kidnapped, but he wasn't kidnapped.
Some men did come through his room and offer him a deal, which did happen. And then some people came to his room and offered him an alternative deal. Kelly Maloney, stroke Frank Maloney suffered some amnesia. She can't remember driving in the back of a Rolls Royce with Mike Middleton and delivering him to a rival promoter. When the rival promoter came in to work the next day, he couldn't believe it. Who's sitting in his ballroom? But Mike Middleton, who officially had been kidnapped the night.
And then lo and behold, a group of press arrived for a press conference that was never formally announced. As I say, you can't invent this stuff. It's all true. Every single aspect of that story is true. Mike Middleton did dress up as Mickey Mouse. He was kidnapped. He did fight for a rival promoter and he did clear in the end something like 47,000 quid or $47,000 instead of the 5,000 that his original contract said.
So it's a great story. And the man that devised the kidnap and put it into place, and he's in the book, he's mentioned, he still was getting Christmas cards from Mike Middleton up until the year that Mike died, which was last year. All of it's true. If I scripted that, if you were commissioning editor for a limited edition series somewhere out in America, and I was trying to pitch this to you, Tim, as a Netflix story, you would have said, hey, Steve, one second, one second.
Have you got any more stories? I don't like that one. I don't believe it. You wouldn't believe it. You can't invent this stuff. It's true. Johnny, Johnny Boss was a matchmaker. Johnny Boss was a matchmaker who some people under about the age of 35 believed didn't exist. Trust me, he did exist. And some people believed that the publicity shot in the, you know, with...
Tim Caple (13:21.555)
Johnny Boss was the guy with his big white coat.
Bunce (13:41.511)
with like the gold ring, the Elton John style glasses and his white fur coat is fake. No, it was real fur and that's really Johnny Boss. And he genuinely did say things like the criteria for a Frank Bruno opponent is a pulse, but not much of one. One of the opponents he supplied lost both his toupee and his teeth in the ring. I wasn't at that fight, but I remember it, I remember watching it.
Had I been at that fight, I would have written about it. Cause that's another thing about this book, the 80 stories of fights and interviews and funerals and prison visits, they're all things I attended and I wrote about. So there's a paper chain. So if you're thinking, I've invented this story about Mike Middleton and Audley Harrison, you can follow the stuff that we wrote at the time, which was daily for about five days. And then obviously in the last 10 years or so, you were moving into pod territory or it's stuff I've done on television.
and or radio, all of it is traceable. So when I talk about some of the Muhammad Ali story, there it is on the front page of the sports section of the Daily Telegraph. And I think that to me was, and I'm maybe jumping ahead, I'm sorry if I have to, that to me was really important is that I wanted everything inside the book to be stuff that.
if people were bothered, they could go and trace and find out, wow, that actually happened. He wrote about that 27 years ago, 22 years ago. And in fact, it was a Marvel rereading, because I'm a nerd actually. It was a Marvel rereading, my actual newspaper cutting. So I've kept just about everything I've ever written and it's semi in order. So actually pulling it out and reading it again, I'd forgotten so many details.
So many details. I'd forgotten all sorts of incredibly tiny small details because when you were writing for the Telegraph in the late 80s and early 90s, then the Independent from the late 90s through, you had to put the details in there. There was no other way to get them. So you put the weight, you put the short color, you put anything that you saw and it happened in the buildup. There were far more details.
in boxing previews and boxing reports then. And it might be the same for all sports because there's so much available now that you can check and watch that perhaps people leave out details that previously were included. Well, I belong to the previously were included gang. So I still like to put in detail because sometimes we don't put in that. I mean, I'm talking about basic details like their weight when they weighed it just, just small things like that. Who was in the corner, maybe age. I mean, sometimes we don't include age and weight in, in fight reports. Now. I mean, this is, this, this is bread and butter. This is straightforward old school journalism. And by the way, Tim, I don't live in the past. I'm from the past, but I don't live in the past. Some of the boxers we have, some of the boxers we have right now could go back in time and clean up. Trust me, you know, not everything back then was glorious and golden, especially the way they were paid.
peanuts, let's get that right. So I try not to live in the past, you know, if you're writing about people that are dead, unfortunately, you've got to visit the past.
Tim Caple (17:04.211)
Sugar Ray Leonard and Terry Norris, the light middleweight title at the Madison Square Garden in New York in 1998. 7,495 people, that is all, turn up to see him making his debut in the garden. And he was still only 34 years of age.
Bunce (17:05.962)
Yeah, what a bad night.
Bunce (17:10.368)
Whew.
Bunce (17:32.958)
That was my garden debut as well, but I'd grown up like Sugar Ray Leonard had, knowing about the garden and watching fights from the garden. I was amazed. I didn't know it was his debut until I got there. And when I was talking to him above a Burger King, I found out, not when I was talking to him, I found out just before I interviewed him. So I was stunned by that. And as you say, 34 years of age, but at that point, he'd lived.
a ridiculous life. He'd, you know, he'd had a massive addiction to recreational drugs and he'd got clean. He'd also still had some great fights left, one or two, deep, decent, but he had great fights in the previous few years. And Terry Norris was at that point, arguably one of the top three fighters in the world. Terry Norris now in a very bad way, Ray Leonard, just absolutely enjoying his lovely constant retirement. Ans has not aged in about 25 years since he got clean of
of all of the problems. But the night itself was, I still consider myself a kid back then. I was a whippersnapper of about 28 or something. And I was in the garden and there was John Gotti at ringside with his white fur coat on standing up and taking applause. He's been introduced from the crowd. The man had only killed 11 people at that point.
Tim Caple (18:42.867)
Teflon don
Bunce (18:56.243)
Mitch Green, the gang leader, famous American gang leader who'd fought Mike Tyson. He was topless on a chair. It was like November. And then I remembered going to a ridiculous boxing pub, which I write about later on in a genuine boxing pub. It was dreamlike. I mean, was like a dream. I'll get back to where I'm staying at about three o'clock in the morning or 2.30 in the morning. And there's
Martin Scorsese's Mean Streets on and I'm just thinking, okay, that's it. I'm gonna die in the next 10 minutes because I've done it now. I've been in a garden. I've seen John Gotti. I've been to the greatest bar in New York. I've seen Terry Norris. I've seen Sugar Ray Leonard. Who cares? And I'm watching Mean Streets. It's 2.30 in the morning. Bring it on. That's it. I'm finished. I'm happy with life. Who cares about being 30?
Tim Caple (19:45.139)
He'd only lost one fight coming into the Norris fight Sugar Ray Leonard against Roberto Duran. Norris had been beaten by Julian Jackson, but the one event that stood out was he knocked out John Mugabe, the beast.
Bunce (19:50.023)
Yeah.
Bunce (19:53.51)
Yeah.
Tim Caple (20:06.823)
who Hagler had been taken to the edge of his existence against. So that gave you an indication, if you didn't know beforehand what Leonard was coming in against.
Bunce (20:17.809)
Well, superficial view of that, bear in mind, we're all wise now. The record books that used to come out then were like seven months behind when they came out, the Ralph Citro fight facts book. There was no online record systems back then. You gained your records by keeping your records, which I've still got. I kept records, I typed records and then hand wrote notes on them. So I knew Terry Norris had a good history and I knew he'd had a couple of good fights. And I knew
that he'd beaten the beast, Mugabe. But Leonard was Leonard, you know, lost to Durant. We didn't know about the cocaine and the drinking problems and the problems with his wife. We didn't know about those things. Then it wasn't the way we did things. We didn't know. It's amazing how little we knew. We concentrated on the fight in fight week. But during fight week, and this is not me being an after timer, I grew convinced that Terry Norris would.
would win. So I did, I did fairly well. I previewed it in a couple of Sunday papers saying that this is the return of Sugar Ray Leonard, don't worry. But by about the Tuesday or the Wednesday, I've changed my mind. And I've lived with that all the time. That, sorry, I've not lived with that change of mind, but I've lived the same way since. I'll change my mind as long as I hold my hands up in time and social media gives you that access to change my mind on the Ring Walk, during the Ring Walk. I have no problem.
I could be massive for let's say Olexander Usyk beating Tyson Fury in their rematch on December the 21st. But something I learned during that Terry Norris, Sugar Ray Leonard week was be aware, pay attention and listen. And you might see and hear something that makes you change your mind. Or I saw and heard enough of Terry Norris that week and saw enough of Sugar Ray who in excerpts was brilliant and other times didn't look quite as good.
that I changed my mind. And so I still do that to this day. And I know I unashamedly do it. As long as you can say it at the top of the broadcast. So listen, all week long, I've been telling you on the pods whilst I've been out here in Saudi that Tyson Fury is gonna win. Well, I've just changed my mind. I don't care if the producer puts his hand in his head, long as you tell people you're doing okay. And don't be afraid to change your mind. Trust me, it's called life, it's called learning.
Tim Caple (22:35.239)
He blamed it on a torn calf muscle, didn't he, Leonard?
Bunce (22:38.807)
Yeah, he came up with a couple of excuses. The bottom line one, it was father time and you can't beat father time. Father time is cliche, but he's undefeated or he or she is undefeated. You cannot turn that clock back. And also Terry Norris then went on to have better wins. Terry Norris was a great fighter. mean, an exceptional fighter, which we know more of now. For instance, I'd never seen film of Terry Norris fighting.
Bunce (23:09.614)
I'd only see, where would you see him in 19, whatever was 19? No, so I'd never seen footage of him fighting. There was no phones to check, no smart tablets, no laptops, no computers or such floating around. So I'd never seen him. I knew, I'd read reporters I trusted. I used to have a system then where a couple of people used to send me, fax me, photocopy of their stuff, of their columns.
from the New York Times or the LA Times or the Miami Herald. Can you believe that? Or the Philadelphia Inquirer? The journalists would go into work on the Monday or the Tuesday or the Wednesday, photocopy it and send it to me. I've still got them. I worked from them. That's how basic and ridiculous it was. Whereas now there could be some fight. I've never heard of a Nicaragua doing 12 rounds for a world flyweight title on Saturday. I can watch him for 20 minutes online. can watch 20 highlights from 20 of his fights.
Tim Caple (23:51.891)
Brilliant.
Bunce (24:08.589)
It's a cheat now, back then it was hard. I don't want to live in the past, but that was hard back then.
Tim Caple (24:14.055)
What did you think when Leonard came back six years later against Camacho?
Bunce (24:17.421)
UGH
Yeah, well, I wasn't happy with that. But at the same time, I've always been understanding of why fighters fight. And sometimes they like to say it's because they just want to get something out of their system. They want to give it one last go. I mean, I've spent the whole week, a whole recent weekend writing and talking about this with reference to Mike Tyson at 58 losing to Jake Paul. So I've got, I never have a problem when they come back. There were people closer to them who loved them more than I do.
who should be protecting them. It's really that simple. And I understand it. They have a desire for the bright lights. They have a desire to see if they've got one more fight in them. And then the other thing is they have a desire to make money. So even Mike Tyson, who's fabulously wealthy, spent most of his money from his career, but different things have flourished outside. He runs a massive legal cannabis
empire basically in Nevada So Mike Tyson's doing very well, but not well enough that he could refuse 22 23 24 million dollars. It's that simple So that's why he came back What would have been really bad about that fight and possibly even the really bad about the Sugar Ray Leonard Hector Camacho fight all those years after losing at the garden is if we found out Leonard was getting peanuts
And if we found out Tyson was coming back for one and a half million, we'd wonder why. Because we know he can get 250,000 for doing two days work with Showtime at a fight for God sake. So we know they're coming back for good money. And so I have no big problem with that, which might sound like that's quite damaging to boxing. Well, boxing does a lot of damage to itself anyway. The fact that a very old man's getting in the ring with someone he shouldn't be getting in the ring with.
Bunce (26:14.186)
Just put that on the list of things that boxing gets wrong. And to me, and I argued with people on all sorts of radio over the weekend, to me personally, the Tyson, let's say the Tyson-Jake Paul fight, wouldn't even make the top 50 things that are wrong with boxing right now. It really wouldn't. The only thing is, they have a 49 things. They're not very, to use an old Fleet Street word, they're not very sexy. No one wants to hear.
about the fact that Bam Bam Rodriguez might be stripped of his IBF Flyaway title, which is an absurdity because I'd have to go into explaining how great he is and how stupid that is. Who cares? Mike Tyson's 58. Simple headline.
Tim Caple (26:53.307)
It's not only boxers you're talking about in the book. Angelo Dundee, you met in Frank Warren's office back in 92 for the first time. He was over with working with Derek Williams for his fight with Lennox Lewis for the British Commonwealth title in terms of legendary figures in the game who almost transcend the sport, he is one, isn't he?
Bunce (26:56.787)
Yeah
Bunce (27:19.816)
You know, when you sit with some of these people, giants of the business, whether they're men like Dundee, and there aren't that many from outside the ropes who are very famous, there's half a dozen promoters or trainers, most of these people in the ring, when you sit with them, and of course they're not that old when you're sitting with them, because everyone's old when you're 32, 33, 34. mean, Dundee might have only been something like 69 or something stupid like that, who knows? Which is kids age. So when you sit with men like Dundee,
and then you start to get their trust. And then you spend time overseas, somewhere foreign. I've always found that really works. you're, you know, if Dundee's from South London and Dundee and I, and I'm from South London and we're always meeting at the Elephant and Castle, it's not that special. But if Dundee's from Philadelphia now lives in Miami and I'm from London and we meet in London the first time, the next time we meet is in Mexico.
then the next time we meet is in Los Angeles, then the next time we meet is in New York, and then the next time we're together for five days in Tokyo, you forge a friendship and you forge a different friendship. You're not just one of the line of people queuing up to get a Angelo Dundee story. You're the man, he's had a club sandwich with him four different places in three different countries and that stuff sticks, that stuff lasts. And so that's how I forged a...
what I would classify as a friendship with Angelo Dundee. you can, well, you you've already hinted at it. You're talking about a man who's got his fingers and toes in so many parts, so many different parts of boxing history. You know, a man who was side by side with the greatest Ali, side by side with Leonard, but more than that, just involved in all sorts of things. You know, Dundee pops up, he's a bit like Forrest Gump.
Bunce (29:15.652)
He shows up in the back of this picture, he's in this film, he's in this press conference, he's in this famous round table debate. Yeah, Angelo Dundee, that was an honor and a privilege.
Tim Caple (29:25.963)
There was a great quote from Derek Williams he was talking about Dundee and what he brought to his training regime. He said to me one day after we finish training he said, I love the way that you hook off the jab. And it made me feel fantastic that this learned man had seen something great in me. And it wasn't until I got back to the hotel, I realized I hadn't thrown a single hook off a jab. But the next day I was throwing them all day.
Bunce (29:49.892)
But the next day, that was what Dundee called his trickology. So you've read this in his books and you've read this in magazines and you've maybe seen an interview, but when you're sitting with Dundee in the Hilton in Mexico City, two days before the fight at the Azteca, and you've ordered your club sandwich the third of the week with him and you're sitting there.
And he suddenly starts to explain what trickology is. And what can you do? You're just listening to a genius and a giant give one of his famous, most legendary speeches. You you are then suddenly part of history. Or when he talked about just slightly pulling the tear back on the famous glove from the Cooper fight at Wembley Stadium, Ali or Clay as he was then against Cooper back in 19...
63. So when he's talking about that, which is unbelievably important in boxing, that glove might be the greatest artifact we have. You're there, you're part of it. You're not part of a group of 15, Tim, which isn't bad. Don't get me wrong, mate. Or you're not part of a group of 60, which isn't bad. Don't get me wrong. It's you and him you have a club sandwich and you're discussing the merits of club sandwiches worldwide and he's telling you about conning Ali and Ali conned him in the Rumble in the Jungle and something in your head's going, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, do not stop talking, Angelo, talk for two solid days, my dictaphone, I'll get a new one, carry on. What are you gonna do?
Tim Caple (31:29.555)
16 world champions. that is incredible. The other guy, Gil Clancy, you talked about him being this confident fight guru, the last of a dying breed, impeccably turned out tremendously well organized. You met him when you were up at the Pocono’s and this was the Foreman and Gerry Cooney fight.
Bunce (31:57.589)
So it was a chance encounter. was in New York and this trip was being organized. I'd been writing for about four or five years, three or four years, and I heard about this trip. So he had to go to Madison Square Garden or whatever it was, eight in the morning, it quite early. And I got on the bus and I was sitting in the seat behind Gil and he was talking. And I'd never seen him in the flesh, but I knew who he was. I was a big fan of Emile Griffiths, who was his most famous fighter.
And I knew Gil Clancy because he was, if not on a par with Dundee, you know, just next to Dundee. Dundee was slightly more of a publicist in the sense he was involved in bigger fights, but Gil's track record is impeccable. And I he was a good storyteller. And so in all of this, again, a bit like not having seen the fighters fight, I hadn't seen Gil in the flesh, but I knew all about it. So I'm sitting behind him just getting edging closer to the gap between the two seats and...
He was just talking casually to various people and turning around and catching your eye. And then talking later on, then him and Gerry were sitting around. And again, it's one of those occasions when you have to pinch yourself because you're in the middle of this ridiculous set of circumstances. You're sitting there with Gil Clancy preparing Gerry Cooney to fight George Foreman.
and you got on a bus that morning outside Madison Square Garden. I mean, that's kind of dream stuff for a boxing journalist or a boxing broadcaster or whatever it is I claim to be these days. And over the years, I got to know Gerry Cooney. So fast forward 30 odd years, I got to know Gerry Cooney very well. And I also got to see the last, I think three of the last four George Foreman.
fights and I dread to look in the book in case I managed to miss them all because I see them have been rubbish at recording real things. I've just managed to put in their 80 ideas. that's true. George is in the book. that was, you talked about generational, you're dealing with a man who was involved in some incredible fights, Gil Clancy in the early 60s and then George Foreman who was involved in legendary fights in the middle of the 70s.
Bunce (34:09.681)
And Gerry Cooney was involved in one of the greatest and most infamous fights in history when he fought Larry Holmes in Caesars in Las Vegas. And it's all there. It's all in one room. It's all in one little gym and it's fairly intimate. There's maybe 10 or 15 of you I don't know, maybe we have too much access now. I don't know, but I don't get that anymore. I don't get that kind of thing. I love everything I do. Don't get me wrong. It's a dream job. People would sell their granny to be in my slipstream carrying.
carrying a typewriter, but I don't get that sense and feeling anymore. It's really weird. Whereas maybe it's because I've got older. I don't know, but I'm trying to think the last time I got that sense. I mean, if I sit down with Chris Eubank or Nigel Ben or even Joe Calzaghe, certainly Lennox Lewis, and I can transport myself back 25, 30 years, I can be reminded of that, but I don't get it as I walk into a room..
Tim Caple (35:07.277)
ironic really when you you talked about Gil Clancy I watched that fight last night actually and the American commentators were saying well he's prepared him physically but with Gerry as we all know it is all about the mental state and if you stand and trade with George Foreman you're in trouble he can knock a horse out if he hits him right and that's exactly what he did to Gerry Cooney.
Bunce (35:12.165)
yeah.
Bunce (35:20.926)
That's the truth, yeah.
Bunce (35:32.189)
And that's one of Gil Clancy's expressions, you know, you can knock a horse out. And he talked the whole time about, he wasn't unaware that Foreman could do what he did to Cooney, because Gill had worked with George when George decided to come back after his 10 year gap and he'd been a consultant, he'd been in and around the George Foreman camp. And also we all knew what George Foreman could do. And so Gerry just got it wrong on the night.
and he got it wrong in the ring and standing with George and trying to trade with George was stupid. I think Jerry obviously acknowledges that that was not the thing to do. But like all fighters, know, it's really easy to have regrets and to start what ifing. And if hadn't have been for my calf and if it hadn't have been for that cut I got.
Tim Caple (36:22.973)
Yeah, yeah.
Bunce (36:26.18)
and they'd always say, it's not an excuse, but I couldn't train because I had this car and I couldn't train and I couldn't train because my calf was bad. I couldn't train because this bone here was broken. Every fighter, certainly the higher you climb up the ranks and the quality, fights injured in some way, shape or form. Less injured than the previous fight and maybe less injured than they'll be in their next fight, but injured. You know, I've got over the years, surprisingly not that many really close friends in boxing.
but the ones I've got were good fighters. So they were either Olympians, Olympic medalists, and then British, European, and world champions. So they were a good group of people. And there's enough of them, there's just not hundreds. I'd get enough people to carry a coffin, don't get me wrong, but maybe not to put out a First Division football team. So when you're with these guys and they'll list, and it kind of comes up.
on a regular basis, there'll always be a conversation about injuries, because some fighters claiming an injury and then Carl Frampton will get up and show you his deformed hands, both of his hands and say, know that one, I fought Kiko second time, I'd only broken that three weeks earlier and then he'll say, look at that, so that was 18 stitches, that was still fresh when I fought Scott Quigg and Richie Woodall would go pull up his ankle and say, see that and his ankle goes off an angle, couldn't run for three in the World Title fights,.
And then Carl Frampton, it'd be like that scene in Jaws, know, when went on the boat and they're comparing injuries. Then Carl Frampton will pull out his elbow, which is completely deformed, it puts you off your meal. He said, yeah, I did that in the first whatever fight. I mean, it just is endless. It just goes on and on. So all fighters fight with injuries, okay? The one thing that they can't explain away is if they get it wrong up here. And that's down to them. If they've got a bad knee, bad.
calf, bad ankle, broken toe like David Hay in that famous fight with Vladimir Klitschko. That's all stuff that's just there. They can't do anything about it. They can get their head right. And it's the ones that get their heads right that have the most success, even with bad elbows, arms, brokenness, broken that and shattered eyebrows. They're the ones that are clearer and stronger in the head, invariably.
Bunce (38:45.002)
In a two horse, so-called even race will always pull ahead.
Tim Caple (38:49.491)
Last quick point on Gil Clancy. He was very outspoken in the time, in the months and the years after Leonard and Hagler fight. And he described the Petronelli's performance. He said it was the worst corner job in the history of boxing, watching what they sent him out to do. In other words, they sent him out to fight orthodox in the first three rounds.
Bunce (38:52.535)
Yes.
Tim Caple (39:18.939)
when he should have sent him out and fought as a southpaw because it gave Leonard that grounding in those first two rounds and allowed him to build the confidence to go on and do what he did.
Bunce (39:28.608)
Yeah, build an early lead. Yeah, I don't know the source of the Gil Clancy Petronelli feud because it definitely would have been that wouldn't have been a rant. They wouldn't have been like friends drinking the night before and then suddenly on the commentary who and Gil was a great pundit expert, whatever he was called. I'm not sure what the TV companies called him. That was particularly harsh. It's quite a famous sort of a fairly damning assault on the Petronelli brothers who of course have got so much right in all of.
Marvin's previous career before that was of course Marvin's last fight. And did they get it wrong on the night? Yeah, coaches get things wrong on the night. That's as simple as that. But then Marvin also admits he got things wrong on the night and he had such faith in the Petronelli’s
Bunce (40:17.846)
Marvin Hagler's in fact should have been in this book. mean, I've got at least 20 symbols to start the next one with. So I'm only 60 short of Around the World in 80 Days, part two. So Marvin admitted he got it wrong, but there was something about Sugar that night, know, and I think with Sugar Ray Leonard, I know he had a couple of defeats and I know he had nights when it was really hard, but I think Sugar Ray Leonard, when we actually do the sieving,
and see what falls through that giant mythical sieve. He falls through and lands with and on top of the very best ever. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying, he's top 20. No, he's better than that. He's right there in that mix. And I have a feeling on that particular night, it might've just been Sugar Ray's night, irrespective of the Pertonelli's perhaps not giving Marvin the greatest advice they could have.
Tim Caple (41:13.171)
Just a couple more. Firstly, one of the saddest tales, I think, in the book surrounding one of the most talented or gifted, I think was the word that you used, fighters that the country ever produced here, hailed from Jamaica. And I'm talking about Kirkland Laing, who had that career from 75 to 94 when he went out on that defeat to Glenn Catley. And the fight against Roberto Duran.
Bunce (41:14.528)
Go on,
Bunce (41:30.975)
Yeah.
Tim Caple (41:41.203)
quite incredible from arguably nowhere to taking on one of the legends of the ring even at that time and it should have been the platform for him surely to go on to huge global success a lot of money and a great life but it never happened
Bunce (41:55.187)
Yeah. Now we think that he fought when he beat, he beats Duran and most people you speak to in boxing say, yeah, but that was a pass to Duran. Well, hey, was it Peak Duran? I don't know, but he had some unbelievable fights and wins and made fortunes after that. That wasn't a failing shot to beat Duran. And it was also wasn't a Duran who was in bad shape and had taken a fight at two weeks notice. We know, and we knew at the time and you can read,
the contemporary reports from the newspapers, the American newspapers. And I compiled those over the years because I particularly liked this fight. You can read the contemporary reports and Duran was, you know, he was aiming to get in the mix with Leonard again and with what's his face, Hearns and Hagler was on his horizon, all stuff that did come to fruition. know, and Laing fights an unbelievable fight. That's a great fight. It's not a guy running.
It's just an incredible fight. one of the greatest wins ever by a British boxer overseas. Certainly greatest win by a British boxer overseas in a non-World Title fight. And Kirk then vanishes, he doesn't really vanish, he just goes and he hangs out in his flats and smokes as much dope as possible. And he watches all these things fall apart. There's another instance, a guy who should be fighting for a World Title gets incarcerated, I write about him in the book. And then Kirkland Lang, who's still getting stoned.
Then watches as Roberta Duran steps in and wins the world title against Davey Moore at Madison Square Garden and makes a couple of million. then 18 months later, whatever it is, gets 10 million for fighting Marvin Hagler. Kirk eases his way back, goes back to America and gets brutally stopped. ends up being hospitalized for two or $3,000. And by the time Kirk's cleared his head, Duran's back in the mix, having made $25 million since they last met.
And Kirk's basically penniless. Yeah, so that was a mad meeting that I write about in that book. It was a 10 minute film I made for the BBC. And it got me in all sorts of troubles because Kirk's family I I tracked Kirk down. It took me two days to track him down. It's an amazing story, all true story. I've got my BBC regulation stab vest on and I'm out on the streets of Hackney at midnight.
eventually track him down, pay him a few quid, buy him some beers. We get drunk on a bench. Lovely story, wrote about it in the paper. Massive, beautiful 10 minute film. Should have won an award, wasn't even entered. I mean, if you watch that now, it's the most beautiful piece of film. And I love it. It's the only thing, it's about, it's the greatest thing, the most proud of anything I've done in my work life was that, yeah, you can track it down. Yeah, you can track it down. Yeah. I've got hundreds of copies on CD.
Bunce (44:44.602)
but there's no volume on them. I've literally got 50 copies with no volume. So if you want to play some music and watch it when you're drunk, beautiful, I can send you a copy, but it's no good if you want to listen to my words. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. So Kirk and I make this film and then about five days later, I get a phone call from his partner saying that Kirk's dead. Three hours later, we get a phone call saying, I know he survived. been pushed off a full story block of flats on the accounts of the state he lives in, in Hackney Downs.
and he survived. And during this sort of chaotic time, I'd asked his girlfriend, who I write about in the book, mentioned in the book, can I come and see him? And she said, Steve, you'd best not because this brother is very angry with you. So I said, why is his brother angry with me? So well, he's saying that you made, and I think the figure was something like 250,000 quid for making this 10 minute film.
And I think, I think, and I write about it in the book, I think I was on 200 pounds a day or 225 per day and I got two days for it. And I never got paid for the day I went into the edit and did the voiceover and there was a squabble over that fee. And eventually they settled the BBC and paid me half a fee. So I've got two days at 225 and a half day at 112 pounds 50 for making a film that took two solid days. We filmed at six in the morning till gone midnight.
back at seven in the morning to about 10 at night, then a whole day in the edit doing the voiceover. And I walked away with about 600 quid and his brother thought I'd made 250 grand. So I wisely and sensibly, because emotions run high in intensive care rooms, did not go and see Kirk when he was in danger. But I still get a sense from some people I know in Nottingham that some of his family believe, I made hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands from that film.
And whenever I'm at a fight in Nottingham, believe me, I'm wary. I'm quite wary. I'll be a bit careful here. So, cause the last thing I want is to have someone jump on my back, believing I stole 250 grand from their brother. You got 500 quid, And he got 500 quid, eight cans of special brew and 20 fags.
Tim Caple (46:56.555)
There were two more that I wanted to mention. First was the most heartwarming story, I think, in the book. it surrounds Gary Mason, who sadly no longer with us, whose career began, what, 40 years ago this year, wasn't it, in 1984. And used to suffer a bit, didn't he? Because he was in the shadows a lot with Bruno and Lennox Lewis. But he knocked out everything.
Bunce (46:58.666)
Awesome
Bunce (47:04.96)
Yeah.
Tim Caple (47:24.563)
on the way to taking that British title off of Hughroy Curry and then beat Tyrell Biggs, he beat Everett Martin and that's the day when he had that first detached retina and then we go on to Lennox Lewis. It's a sad tale of one of the most humble guys you'd ever wish to meet.
Bunce (47:46.497)
Yes.
Bunce (47:50.304)
Yeah, Gary Mason, he was a much better fighter, Gary, than people maybe remember or give him credit for. And in a different time, even if he was in the same, quote, stable, we still use the word stable, which is shocking, really. Even if he was in the same stable as a fighter like Frank Bruno, he wouldn't have been used, and the correct word used, as much as he was to help Bruno prepare for things. He might have even left the stable. And Gary Mason now,
you know, Gary Mason would have had a very different trajectory. But then most fighters from the late eighties and most of the nineties, the good ones, they'd all have a different life now. They'd all have a different life now. And again, it's not me living in the past. It's just a fact. All the world champions from the seventies, men like John H. Stracey, who have to go to work still after dinner speaking. John Conte after dinner speaking and playing golf.
Charlie Magri, since he was a world champion, he's been a publican, he's been a bin man. Minter before he died was dependent on going out and nicking a few quid on the after dinner circuit. Those men as world champions, watched by 20 million on BBC, selling out the Royal Albert Hall and selling out Wembley, they didn't end up with very much money. It's as simple as that. And same with the guys in the 80s. So same with Mason had Gary.
been born 10 years later, Gary Mason would be one of the world's top TV boxing pundits. There's no two ways about it. And he probably would have won a version of a world title somewhere along the line. The thing he did for Michael Watson is quite incredible. It's a good story. I don't wanna talk too much about it, because it's a great story and it makes me a bit emotional. if you only buy the book and you read one story, make sure you read number seven, tell number seven, 10 grand.
Tim Caple (49:41.523)
Lastly, lastly, it is Frank Bruno and Joe Bugner. And I just loved the story of you and the fake press card made by a guy who sold peanuts at Arsenal's home games at Highbury.
Bunce (49:42.473)
Go on my son!
Bunce (49:52.105)
You
Bunce (49:56.297)
Yeah, Kenny Peanuts, he's still around now. He trains fighters in East London. Kenny Peanuts is genuine. I mean, again, if I invent a character who I've known from a gym from when I was young, who works in the print, so many Londoners worked in the print, no one knows really what it was. Murdoch obviously closed it down and made it more redundant. And his sideline was he used to, with his fake
Press Pass, which I owned for about 10 years. was better than the NUJ card, I assure you. That was a better gib than the genuine NUJ card. So with the fake press card, Kenny Peanuts would go to the Arsenal every single, and that was his game, every single Saturday, just bounce between aisles, wood, and seats, and he'd be selling his peanuts. That's what he did.
Tim Caple (50:45.203)
How did you not have the ability to get in? You're covering it for the Telegraph, the Express, the locals.
Bunce (50:51.571)
Well, I wasn't covering it. I was working at that time for the Telegraph. was working, was filing copy for the Telegraph. I was working at that time for the Sunday Express and the Sunday Mirror, filing copy for them. But of course, for a fight like that, it's a stadium fight. the first stadium fight. I think it might have been the first stadium fight since, if I'm not mistaken, since the 1966 fight with Muhammad Ali and Henry Cooper at Highbury. So it might have gone from
66 through 87 and just moved up the road from Arsenal to Spurs. I think that's the case. mean, running off top of my head now, maybe someone could correct me, but I think that's the case. So it's the first stadium fight in 21 years. It's Joe Borgner. It's Frank Bruno. Mike Tyson's going to be ringside. All that kind of rubbish. Donald Trump's going to be ringside. This geezer, this billionaire playboy from New York is going to be ringside. So every paper
grabbed up their two or three allocations. So there'd be the chief sports writer, there'd be the boxing correspondent, there'd be another guy doing quotes, all the stuff that I would do on a normal night. So suddenly I found myself falling through a hole at the Sunday Express. I even reached out to the Sunday Times. I knew Nick Pitt, who was, I think, sports editor at the time. reached out to two or three papers I worked for and a couple others, and I couldn't get anywhere. So I just went along with my past and just did my gibbing, which is,
I've done that enough times when I was younger anyway, yeah. big Joe, man.
Tim Caple (52:20.883)
Bugner he used to get some pretty bad press at the time. but if you go back and look at the story about him with his mother walking across the the borders in Hungary with little Joe in arms to escape communism that was an incredible story, but he was far from finished. This was at the time, wasn't it? Frank Warren had started promoting fights on ITV.
And the big draw was was Bugner. And if you look at who he'd beaten on the way in there, Greg Page, David Bey, James Quick-Tillis was there. I mean, he was far from washed up.
you know, we did that thing earlier when we talked about Sugar Ray Leonard being 34. I mean, the top of my head, and I haven't got the book in front of me. Let's say Bougner was 35 or something, or 36. It wasn't like he was even in his 40s. There was plenty left in Big Joe, trust me. And, you know, he carried on fighting for a million trillion years after, which he really did. But you're right, you mentioned there about how badly observed.
Joe Bugner is, which is a disgrace because I think he's one of the greatest British heavyweights of all time. And I was one of the big defenders of Joe Bugner, and it's the stuff that you don't ever see in the clips is when Parky Parkinson had his show and Ali appeared on it, there's all the knockabout stuff, with all the sort, you you know, all the knockabout stuff, but some of the more personal stuff and you can watch it. And I was really tempted to put some of it in the book.
is Ali defending Bugner to Parky who did not like Joe Bugner. Some of the big writers at the time, Hugh McAlvenny, they did not like Joe Bugner. They considered Joe Bugner a bit brash and a bit arrogant. He was a kind of trash talker, Joe Bugner, before trash talking was allowed. He was allowed if you're an American heavyweight, but it wasn't allowed if you were a big lump from Bedford who'd been carried over the Alps by his mother.
. He wasn't meant to be mouthy. He wasn't meant to be confident. He wasn't meant to talk about how he would beat Muhammad Ali. He played the game, Joe, but he upset a lot of the British press and they created this whole thing. If you actually look at Joe Boogner's entire record,
It's staggering. I mean, I make really bold claims for Joe Bugner. I'm not having him at the end of my top 10. I'm having him really high in my top five, mate. I'm telling you. And I've always, always been a Joe Bugner fan. I remember growing up in my house, my dad being really frustrated when he'd hear Harry Carpenter talking about, he was no fan of Bugner, about how Joe Bugner couldn't really punch. And I remember my dad explaining to me when I was young saying, listen,
If you're 16 stone and you hit a man anywhere, you're gonna hurt him. All this no punch, this is a complete, it's a joke. It doesn't exist. He wouldn't have said fallacy, wouldn't have used that word. It's a fallacy, it's a complete joke. There are men that hit you and you go to sleep, and there are men that hit you and you remain here, but you always know you've been hit. It's that simple. And Joe Bugner, well, I'll tell you, Joe Bugner with that ridiculous blonde hair, friends with Tom Jones, the body he's got now.
Boy boy, we think Jake Paul earns a few quid, Joe Bugner would be out earning all of them.
Tim Caple (55:56.753)
You obviously know these stories about Bugner how he was on the Hollywood A-list for parties. He fell out with Elvis Presley.
Bunce (56:12.351)
He swore at Elvis, told Elvis to stuff it. In no uncertain terms Joe told me this story. Joe told me this story one day in fancy hotel in Mayfair when he had the run-in with Elvis and Elvis says to him... Like the Elvis talk so he swears at him, swears at him. And then he points his finger at the seven or eight honchos. You know those guys that was with Elvis? And he basically tells them in no uncertain terms. and if you want it, i'll take
you fucking mob out as well.
And he wasn't joking. So he left the suite. He embarrassed Ali, but Ali and him you know, were friends. It was a bit, it was a bit tricky. Big Joe left the suite. What did he care? He was Joe Bugner. He'd been carried out of Hungary on his mother's back. How's he going to be scared of five cowboys and a multi-millionaire singer? I'm not being funny. You Joe Bugner didn't scare easily my son. I can assure you.
Tim Caple (57:03.763)
And it ended, well sadly, the, he suffers from dementia in a care home in Brisbane. So that's it. you've got everything together in this book, the whole 80, around the world in 80 fights and characters. What was your favorite out of all of them? If you could pick one.
Bunce (57:27.88)
Yeah, it's kind of up and down. I like the Mason story because that was very close to that. That was very personal. I like the Mike Tyson, Danny Williams story because it was so unbelievable. I quite like term like Watkins, the Rat catcher of Iraq, because that doesn't sound like a true story. Obviously, I've got a soft spot for
Tim Caple (57:38.255)
that's a great story.
Bunce (58:00.831)
Number 46, Chris Eubank, Michael Watson, two. Taylor Serrano, one. Number 72, I can't pick one particular one. I can't, there's about, all 80 are in there because there's a reason why they're there. And there's one or two odd ones when people say, that was a weird one, Steve. Why have you put Martin Bowers in there? And I say, well, there's a reason, there's a method to my madness and Martin Bowers is in there and there's no Carl Froch fight. There is a reason for that. So.
So now unfortunately, Tim, I've got to let you down because I can't pick one particular one.
Tim Caple (58:34.163)
And if you ended on a quote, this is your quote, there's one thing that growing old in this business has taught me, and that is never believe the fighters of your youth were better because living in the past is a boxing sin.
Bunce (58:50.409)
Yeah, I like that quote. I might use that. Was that mine? Get in! I'll have that son! Every day of the week! Well, I'll take that and I'll stick it on a t-shirt. Listen, we've got people in the game who are 35 years old who insist that the boxers 10 years ago were all better.
Bunce (59:09.988)
It's like an early form of Alzheimer's, the boxing media get. You've got all these 37 year olds discussing the good old days and I'm keeping my head down now. Okay boys, yeah. Give me a fruit juice. All right, Tim.
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